On (let's see) fairies, dreams, fiction, consciousness, resurrection, children's literature, time, the Higgs boson, nature and supernature, the principium plenitudinis, and assorted related topics...
This was a hugely enjoyable conversation to listen to. I hope very much that a second inning will be forthcoming: I'd love, love, to hear more about the sidhe, in both its benign and more malevolent aspects (the latter always seems to be overlooked in the New Age take on things), and more too on yours and Ms Vickers's novels and takes on fiction, past and present and future. Oh, and if fairies do come up (please?), a mention of of your old acquaintance Reuben might not be amiss. Your essay on him remains my favorite to this day.
Anyway, thanks so much for sharing your "conversation" - so much more enjoyable than an interview, for us surely, and hopefully for you as well.
Oh, yes. Peter Firmin and Oliver Postgate never seemed to put a foot wrong in all the children’s programs they made. The visuals were, apparently, simple, but far more rewarding than CGI. The music was intriguing and the their choice of words seemed designed to draw children forward into the mystery and delight of language. When I ask my own children which children’s programs they remember, it’s these old stories, made years before their time, that have stuck. They particularly remember the witch from Pogle’s Wood. She gave them nightmares, but they couldn’t wait to watch the next episode. Bilberry wine anyone?
You were smart to run David. I have great admiration for the Daoine Sidhe but they do have a nasty habit of taking people to the other place for inordinate periods of time. You may have ended up like Urashima.
Considering that most 17-year men are fighting a losing battle against their own hormones, DBH (unless he was always the paragon of virtue as we know him today) was quite fortunate to encounter a manitou rather than, let’s say, naiads of Mysian variety.
Watching and listening to you two adults (David and Salley) open up your toy chests, both bashfully and exuberantly show and share your goods with each other—while joyfully playing like children—was nuttin’ but delightful. Not to mention educational in the best of informality. P.S. After interactions like this, I’m increasingly convinced that the great semiotician “John” meant to say, *delight* in lieu of “love” when stating that Jesus’ followers will be known by their “love” for one another. Again, thank you!
After watching this, I think it would be great to see a polytheist on the channel (Admittedly, there aren't many among scholars... Edward Butler? Gregory Shaw? I think the latter knows John Milbank. Can't think of others right now. ).
I also think Roland should have his own Zoom webinar.
Agreed -would add fascinating angles to the topic of eating a land’s native fruit and gaining faerie perception there! A phenomenon also described by George MacDonald in Phantastes:)
Yes, this is well-documented in fairy legend: eating the produce of land where fairies reside endows fairy sight - I think DBH and I touch on this in our talk
Two friends in conversation and I liked Salley Vikers from the moment she spoke. I didn’t know who she was and DBH graciously introduced her. 2 hours later I could not sleep from the abundance of gold nuggets shining about in my mind. Easy listening… don’t miss it. I plan to listen again. I did order one book from each author. Ummm…
KENOGAIA…finished 13 pages. I like what I slowly read. 🕊 I don’t think I belong here in these discussions. 😳
Absolutely loved that conversation; nice to be given permission to use the imagination and enjoy living in a metaphysically bigger world. Reading list just got a bit longer too...
I always (mistakenly?) thought Graham Greene was all for struggling with a clear-eyed, tough Catholicism while criticizing a toxic Catholicism. I read Waugh the same way. And Percy. But I get much wrong.
Of course. It is the bargain made with God I found most distasteful. Not the kind of God I have much time for. But as has been said there are some good Greenes
I must apologise to Roland as listening to this I heard myself say "Roland by Moonlight" . I hope he will forgive my temporarily confusing him with Oberon/Titania. Fairies were on my mind.
He's a fine writer when his gloomy Catholicism doesn't direct the narrative. The spiritual premise of The End of the Affair is most unpleasant, implying a very punitive God. Brighton Rock different matter.
One of the things I didn’t like in the End of the Affair is the external, artificial pressure to return to the path of the faith (which is a flaw it shares with Brideshead Revisited, which I consider a superior book). The Power and the Glory managed it much better as it gave more agency to its protagonist. (The whiskey priest’s self-sacrifice actually reminded me of Saint Peter’s return to Rome as told in Quo Vadis.)
Speaking of punitive God in literature, few works can beat C.S. Lewis’s treatment of poor Susan at the end of Narnia series. Incidentally, Neil Gaiman (which we discussed in another post in this thread) did an inspired but rather vulgar attempt to show his sympathies in his short story The Problem of Susan.
Lewis obviously had contempt for what might be (crudely, and for lack of a better term) called "conventional femininity," but I always took Susan's arc in TLB to be an attempt at a realistic representation of the way many people end up disowning the spiritual experiences they had as children as a part of "growing up." I think the real problem is it comes out of nowhere and (because it's so forced) Lewis falls back on his knee-jerk sexism in trying to explain it. But then I've never met a Narnia devotee (child or adult) who accepts TLB as Susan's ultimate fate, so if Lewis wanted to cast Susan forever into the outer darkness, it didn't work.
Yes, or rather, no, that is not his finest piece of characterisation but then that last book goes off the rails, or perhaps I mean it goes on tosome rails, or anyway becomes proselytising rather than enchanting. A case of ideology taking over.
Thank you very much for this fabulous conversation. It is a great pleasure to witness the interaction of such clever and erudite people.
Some of your fascination with the hidden world and dreamlike realities reminded me of Neil Gaiman’s works, so I would hazard a guess that both of you like him. Though he would certainly disagree with DBH’s statement that there are no fairies of housing development.
No, but a very good old friend with excellent taste also recommends it. So as my godmother would have said, if two people tell you you are drunk, lie down
This was a hugely enjoyable conversation to listen to. I hope very much that a second inning will be forthcoming: I'd love, love, to hear more about the sidhe, in both its benign and more malevolent aspects (the latter always seems to be overlooked in the New Age take on things), and more too on yours and Ms Vickers's novels and takes on fiction, past and present and future. Oh, and if fairies do come up (please?), a mention of of your old acquaintance Reuben might not be amiss. Your essay on him remains my favorite to this day.
Anyway, thanks so much for sharing your "conversation" - so much more enjoyable than an interview, for us surely, and hopefully for you as well.
I can't tell you how much I enjoyed this conversation.
Try.
Ok. I enjoyed it almost as much as I enjoyed showing this to my little grandchildren recently. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWp7ZX1Mjkk
Now that brings back memories.
Ah, one of my own favourites - and isn't that voice wonderful?
Oh, yes. Peter Firmin and Oliver Postgate never seemed to put a foot wrong in all the children’s programs they made. The visuals were, apparently, simple, but far more rewarding than CGI. The music was intriguing and the their choice of words seemed designed to draw children forward into the mystery and delight of language. When I ask my own children which children’s programs they remember, it’s these old stories, made years before their time, that have stuck. They particularly remember the witch from Pogle’s Wood. She gave them nightmares, but they couldn’t wait to watch the next episode. Bilberry wine anyone?
And Bagpuss and the Clangers?
Sheer genius.
You were smart to run David. I have great admiration for the Daoine Sidhe but they do have a nasty habit of taking people to the other place for inordinate periods of time. You may have ended up like Urashima.
Nice mixture of the Celtic and the Japanese there.
Considering that most 17-year men are fighting a losing battle against their own hormones, DBH (unless he was always the paragon of virtue as we know him today) was quite fortunate to encounter a manitou rather than, let’s say, naiads of Mysian variety.
Please, never be so unkind as to call me a "paragon of virtue" again.
Very damaging to your reputation
I should say so.
I can only offer my sincere apologies. I will double them if, as a result of this, you receive a positive review from Gerald McDermott.
Watching and listening to you two adults (David and Salley) open up your toy chests, both bashfully and exuberantly show and share your goods with each other—while joyfully playing like children—was nuttin’ but delightful. Not to mention educational in the best of informality. P.S. After interactions like this, I’m increasingly convinced that the great semiotician “John” meant to say, *delight* in lieu of “love” when stating that Jesus’ followers will be known by their “love” for one another. Again, thank you!
After watching this, I think it would be great to see a polytheist on the channel (Admittedly, there aren't many among scholars... Edward Butler? Gregory Shaw? I think the latter knows John Milbank. Can't think of others right now. ).
I also think Roland should have his own Zoom webinar.
I want to hear this conversation with Rupert Sheldrake phoned in 🙏
Or his son, Merlin, whose book "Entangled Life" is a wonderful and moving account of the inner life of trees
Agreed -would add fascinating angles to the topic of eating a land’s native fruit and gaining faerie perception there! A phenomenon also described by George MacDonald in Phantastes:)
Yes, this is well-documented in fairy legend: eating the produce of land where fairies reside endows fairy sight - I think DBH and I touch on this in our talk
You did, and it was one of the many bright spots. I look forward to the next whether it involves a Sheldrake or not:)
Two friends in conversation and I liked Salley Vikers from the moment she spoke. I didn’t know who she was and DBH graciously introduced her. 2 hours later I could not sleep from the abundance of gold nuggets shining about in my mind. Easy listening… don’t miss it. I plan to listen again. I did order one book from each author. Ummm…
KENOGAIA…finished 13 pages. I like what I slowly read. 🕊 I don’t think I belong here in these discussions. 😳
🤣😂🤣 Back to Kenogaia !
Utterly delightful. Thank so much for this, both of you xxx
Absolutely loved that conversation; nice to be given permission to use the imagination and enjoy living in a metaphysically bigger world. Reading list just got a bit longer too...
I always (mistakenly?) thought Graham Greene was all for struggling with a clear-eyed, tough Catholicism while criticizing a toxic Catholicism. I read Waugh the same way. And Percy. But I get much wrong.
Well, there are many perspectives on these things, after all.
Of course. It is the bargain made with God I found most distasteful. Not the kind of God I have much time for. But as has been said there are some good Greenes
I agree.
I really loved this conversation. Shared.
Two books sold.
I must apologise to Roland as listening to this I heard myself say "Roland by Moonlight" . I hope he will forgive my temporarily confusing him with Oberon/Titania. Fairies were on my mind.
So long as it was well-met…well-meant, that is.
I'm sure Roland is familiar with their majesties and will understand that it was an unconscious compliment
They’re old friends, I assure you.
I had assumed as much
Graham Greene is a fine writer in the tradition of Rider Haggard. He’s just not a fine writer in the tradition of Joseph Conrad.
He’s at his best as E. W. Hornung.
He's a fine writer when his gloomy Catholicism doesn't direct the narrative. The spiritual premise of The End of the Affair is most unpleasant, implying a very punitive God. Brighton Rock different matter.
Yes and yes.
One of the things I didn’t like in the End of the Affair is the external, artificial pressure to return to the path of the faith (which is a flaw it shares with Brideshead Revisited, which I consider a superior book). The Power and the Glory managed it much better as it gave more agency to its protagonist. (The whiskey priest’s self-sacrifice actually reminded me of Saint Peter’s return to Rome as told in Quo Vadis.)
Speaking of punitive God in literature, few works can beat C.S. Lewis’s treatment of poor Susan at the end of Narnia series. Incidentally, Neil Gaiman (which we discussed in another post in this thread) did an inspired but rather vulgar attempt to show his sympathies in his short story The Problem of Susan.
Sometimes the Ulster Protestant defeated the Christian Platonist in him. Who knew lipstick is the path to perdition?
Come to think of it, the book of Enoch suggests something similar…
Lewis obviously had contempt for what might be (crudely, and for lack of a better term) called "conventional femininity," but I always took Susan's arc in TLB to be an attempt at a realistic representation of the way many people end up disowning the spiritual experiences they had as children as a part of "growing up." I think the real problem is it comes out of nowhere and (because it's so forced) Lewis falls back on his knee-jerk sexism in trying to explain it. But then I've never met a Narnia devotee (child or adult) who accepts TLB as Susan's ultimate fate, so if Lewis wanted to cast Susan forever into the outer darkness, it didn't work.
Well, I agree. "Once a king or queen of Narnia always a king or queen of Narnia". I might write Susan's apostasy (of the adult world) one day.
Now that would be nice…
Yes, or rather, no, that is not his finest piece of characterisation but then that last book goes off the rails, or perhaps I mean it goes on tosome rails, or anyway becomes proselytising rather than enchanting. A case of ideology taking over.
Thank you very much for this fabulous conversation. It is a great pleasure to witness the interaction of such clever and erudite people.
Some of your fascination with the hidden world and dreamlike realities reminded me of Neil Gaiman’s works, so I would hazard a guess that both of you like him. Though he would certainly disagree with DBH’s statement that there are no fairies of housing development.
Yes, I am a Gaiman fan. Also of Alan Garner, Susan Cooper, Ursula Le Guin
Salley, have you read Elizabeth Knox’s The Absolute Book? Wonderful stuff.
No, but a very good old friend with excellent taste also recommends it. So as my godmother would have said, if two people tell you you are drunk, lie down