Increasingly I find that those upon whom the church sets the attack dogs, have something helpful to say. Usually it’s something ‘hiding in plain sight’ which it suits deeper darker agendas to distract the faithful from, for example the surfeit of texts suggesting ‘That All May Be Saved’. Surely the well ordered heart must desire this to be so, if only for purely selfish motives. Thank you for becoming a lightening rod David, however wearying.
Apologies in advance that this comment isn't more substantive for a first time comment, but, Dr. Hart, I've been spending time with your work for several years now and I just wanted to express how meaningful your thought has been to me. I am currently attempting to pursue a vocation in ministry as a healthcare chaplain and when I think about encounter with so many in distress and deep pain, these questions become so profoundly, humanly urgent. The universalist answer has become core to my faith and I can't but envision it as absolutely integral to approaching with due gravity the work of, as they say, a ministry of presence and of clarifying the nature of God one should seek to emulate in that work. On a purely personal level, your work has been central to my finding real rest, really for the first time, in God's love and been a site of deep healing. So, despite how understandably wearying these responses to Rooney have been, I wanted to offer my thanks for your recapitulation of them here, as they continue to help me find a theological way forward into a real hope and a way into encountering the tradition that actually makes sense, both intellectually and morally. Sending all good wishes.
Father Rooney's God - and indeed the God of many sincere and apparently devoted Christians - brings to mind Dickens' Wackford Squeers "Who's a goin' to be blamed? Who's a goin' to be whopped?' It's so very clearly a human projection, based on probably rather unhappy experience, and betrays an impoverished lcapacity for getting beyond the personal. and imagining transcendence. It would be insulting if it weren't rather sad - and dangerous, since it gives licence for human beings to behave in the manner of the punitive God they have created in the name of corrective justice. This horrible travesty drives so many away - and rightly so. Also what is this barmy notion We don't know what Hell is for but it will be revealed to us when we die? Surely this is bonkers: God creating rational beings and then deliberately withholding rational explanations.
I love this so much. I've heard/read all the content before, but there is some kind of absurd humor in the tone of the interview: David Artman soldiers on with his summary of Rooney's argument while DBH grows increasingly exasperated. Artman's ability to keep going has some amazingly humorous quality that I can't quite pin down. It's like Beckett's Endgame somehow.
What is it with clerics (plenty in American Orthodoxy, sadly) who take such great delight in accusing people of heresy? It's as if it were the best part of Christianity: Shouting "anathema sit!" at your interlocutors.
For what it’s worth, here is my summary of how Fr. Rooney in his interview with Suan Sonna spoke about Aquinas and why humans are at fault for resisting God’s sufficient grace.
Father Rooney quotes Thomas Aquinas as saying God shines the sun on everybody and the only reason they are damned is because they shut their eyes to it. God doesn’t set us up to fail. He allows it to happen. He allowed the Fall to happen so we do not come into existence in a state of grace. That’s the world he decided to create. We just have to trust that God is good even when the evidence may seem otherwise. It can be spiritually dangerous to try and find out God’s reasons for the allowance of evil.
This is not an exact verbatim, but I believe it captures his line of reasoning pretty well, and it shows his attempt at combining Aquinas and a C.S. Lewis approach.
Debating an absentee opponent through the lamentable and dross recitation of tedious quotes, though congenial in there Southern delivery, should not be repeated or imitated in any realm or context. My sympathies are with you, Hart. I earnestly believe you are a misunderstood man. Your cross to bare, perhaps. Praying for the speedy termination of your indisposition and the softening of prejudiced hearts.
Thank you for having these interactions when you're up for them (however reluctant). They serve as therapeutic for those of us who, while intellectually persuaded by the [truly] Good News, yet suffer the nagging echos of infernalist doctrine from our childhood. The trauma is real and difficult to heal.
I’m halfway through the podcast and am impressed with your patience in having to recite basic propositions and principles. As a Catholic (former Anglican), I spent last weekend with a young-ish (mid 40s is young in the Dominican order) Dominican priest who knows (and ridicules) I believe we shall all be saved. I was in two minds whether to raise the Rooney - Hart ‘debate’ (and indeed whether he was even aware of it). In the end I chose not to and we spent the weekend discussing whether the rise of Talibanism in young conservative Catholics is a temporary phenomenon or are we going to be accusing our co-religionists of heresy for some time to come!! Jury is out.
Increasingly I find that those upon whom the church sets the attack dogs, have something helpful to say. Usually it’s something ‘hiding in plain sight’ which it suits deeper darker agendas to distract the faithful from, for example the surfeit of texts suggesting ‘That All May Be Saved’. Surely the well ordered heart must desire this to be so, if only for purely selfish motives. Thank you for becoming a lightening rod David, however wearying.
Apologies in advance that this comment isn't more substantive for a first time comment, but, Dr. Hart, I've been spending time with your work for several years now and I just wanted to express how meaningful your thought has been to me. I am currently attempting to pursue a vocation in ministry as a healthcare chaplain and when I think about encounter with so many in distress and deep pain, these questions become so profoundly, humanly urgent. The universalist answer has become core to my faith and I can't but envision it as absolutely integral to approaching with due gravity the work of, as they say, a ministry of presence and of clarifying the nature of God one should seek to emulate in that work. On a purely personal level, your work has been central to my finding real rest, really for the first time, in God's love and been a site of deep healing. So, despite how understandably wearying these responses to Rooney have been, I wanted to offer my thanks for your recapitulation of them here, as they continue to help me find a theological way forward into a real hope and a way into encountering the tradition that actually makes sense, both intellectually and morally. Sending all good wishes.
Father Rooney's God - and indeed the God of many sincere and apparently devoted Christians - brings to mind Dickens' Wackford Squeers "Who's a goin' to be blamed? Who's a goin' to be whopped?' It's so very clearly a human projection, based on probably rather unhappy experience, and betrays an impoverished lcapacity for getting beyond the personal. and imagining transcendence. It would be insulting if it weren't rather sad - and dangerous, since it gives licence for human beings to behave in the manner of the punitive God they have created in the name of corrective justice. This horrible travesty drives so many away - and rightly so. Also what is this barmy notion We don't know what Hell is for but it will be revealed to us when we die? Surely this is bonkers: God creating rational beings and then deliberately withholding rational explanations.
I can't express how much I enjoyed it, and only wish I had a greater number like-minded friends with whom I could share it.
You know a matter doesn't even rise to the level of debate when even Dr. Hart's sighs have become rhetorically devastating.
I love this so much. I've heard/read all the content before, but there is some kind of absurd humor in the tone of the interview: David Artman soldiers on with his summary of Rooney's argument while DBH grows increasingly exasperated. Artman's ability to keep going has some amazingly humorous quality that I can't quite pin down. It's like Beckett's Endgame somehow.
What is it with clerics (plenty in American Orthodoxy, sadly) who take such great delight in accusing people of heresy? It's as if it were the best part of Christianity: Shouting "anathema sit!" at your interlocutors.
For what it’s worth, here is my summary of how Fr. Rooney in his interview with Suan Sonna spoke about Aquinas and why humans are at fault for resisting God’s sufficient grace.
Father Rooney quotes Thomas Aquinas as saying God shines the sun on everybody and the only reason they are damned is because they shut their eyes to it. God doesn’t set us up to fail. He allows it to happen. He allowed the Fall to happen so we do not come into existence in a state of grace. That’s the world he decided to create. We just have to trust that God is good even when the evidence may seem otherwise. It can be spiritually dangerous to try and find out God’s reasons for the allowance of evil.
This is not an exact verbatim, but I believe it captures his line of reasoning pretty well, and it shows his attempt at combining Aquinas and a C.S. Lewis approach.
Debating an absentee opponent through the lamentable and dross recitation of tedious quotes, though congenial in there Southern delivery, should not be repeated or imitated in any realm or context. My sympathies are with you, Hart. I earnestly believe you are a misunderstood man. Your cross to bare, perhaps. Praying for the speedy termination of your indisposition and the softening of prejudiced hearts.
Using Dr. Hart's words, I would retitle this, "Why God Is Not an Ass."
- This podcast is a wonderful response to "That All Shall Be Saved" and those who keep raising... hell.
My Greek (?) is rusty. Who is the saint in the icon?
Thank you for having these interactions when you're up for them (however reluctant). They serve as therapeutic for those of us who, while intellectually persuaded by the [truly] Good News, yet suffer the nagging echos of infernalist doctrine from our childhood. The trauma is real and difficult to heal.
This note is posted on Twitter about Maximus
Does Hart actually claim "the same genos"? Pretty amazing claim when looking at the exact opposite in Gregory of Nyssa (w/ the same wording).
In any case, no surprise of course... Just strikes this guy who was recently working on this line in Gregory.
https://twitter.com/jabgreig/status/1613807531079438337?s=46&t=dWmWUb3IHO4HfDM5-CnaYw
I’m halfway through the podcast and am impressed with your patience in having to recite basic propositions and principles. As a Catholic (former Anglican), I spent last weekend with a young-ish (mid 40s is young in the Dominican order) Dominican priest who knows (and ridicules) I believe we shall all be saved. I was in two minds whether to raise the Rooney - Hart ‘debate’ (and indeed whether he was even aware of it). In the end I chose not to and we spent the weekend discussing whether the rise of Talibanism in young conservative Catholics is a temporary phenomenon or are we going to be accusing our co-religionists of heresy for some time to come!! Jury is out.
I hope the weather lets up and you drink some tea with honey to soothe the throat at least.
The really frustrating thing here is the reference to Isaac of Nineveh and Maximus as supporting, or at least being consistent with, Rooney....