Clearly my mind is a "sive"...but at least I have the Tiddlywinks championship to console me!
This universalist debate is unfortunate. I especially hated the remark that one reviewer of your book made that if you were to take hell out of the equation, Christianity wouldn't have any attraction. That's not good news at all.
On debts: I wanted to say also I appreciated what you had to say about the Lord's Prayer some time ago and the idea (if I am not misconstruing your argument) that part of the prayer is about debtor's court and the predatory lending practices in the ancient world that kept people in poverty and worse. I now never say the Lord's Prayer anymore without that in mind.
To my mind, taking hell (or hell as commonly presented/understood) out of the equation is the only way that Christianity has any possible attraction at all.
In the parking lot of my Catholic boys high school, I was talking with one of the brothers who the school brought in to teach from another order (the school was run by the Xavierian Brothers). He drove a VW Beetle, and I remember the afternoon as quite sunny. I do not remember what we were discussing, but I vividly remember he saying to me: "My god would not create a hell." The comment has stayed with me all of these years (nearing five decades)--one of those moments when truth was simply and clearly stated, though at the time I did not completely grasp the profundity of what he had said. I know if I were ever to return to some form of Christianity, it would be as a universalist.
The article is called "A Prayer for the Poor" and was published in Notre Dame's Church Life Journal, for anyone interested in reading it for themselves (which you should). I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks of it every time I recite the Lord's Prayer.
In fact, & I made this point in Bookforum (I had thought I made it in my review of David's book, but I see now it was of Elaine Pagels), "Surely the concept of hell has produced more atheists than Feuerbach and Nietzsche combined."
A very long time ago, a wise man from a pulpit told the story of his conversation with a person who insisted on the fact of eternal damnation. "How many people have to go to Hell before you feel safe?" the preacher asked him. That has stuck with me.
On the subject of hell, I've always favoured Marlowe's Mephistophilis's "Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. Think'st thou that I who saw the face of God And tasted the eternal joys of heaven Am not tormented with ten thousand hells In being deprived of everlasting bliss?" as the only credible version of it
You know, sometimes I just stop and try to imagine how Christian-identified folks would behave if they truly understood the unconditional love of Abba God. It's stunning to consider.
It seems nowadays with the identification of Christianity with Empire, most folks have a kind of "deficit" model of theology. This keeps them always unsettled, needing an authority to tell them they are okay. Thus the hierarchy retains power.
Thank you , David , for your "Addendum to my Addenda" which continues classical wit from both Al Kimel and D. W. Frauenfelder. We English-speaking and former Protestants and Roman Catholics were attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy like you were by the just deceased Met. Kallistos Ware. But yr.
essays and books have kept many of us from leaving because of the ignorant betrayers of Orthodoxy
and its best theologians from "St." Origen, St. Irenaeus, and St. Gregory of Nyssa to Sergius Bulgakov, John Behr, Aidan (or "Al"?) Kimel of "Eclectic Orthodoxy," and the always courageous and witty David Bentley Hart. Truly yours, Dr. David C. McAlpin
Many thanks, David, for your kind words for my good friend. And for us in the pastoral trenches, universalem is embraced at the worst of times as our greatest hope.
Thank you, David, for your recommendation of 'Destined for Joy' and thank you for the excellent Afterword that you wrote for the book. Thank you!
I just ordered it.
Clearly my mind is a "sive"...but at least I have the Tiddlywinks championship to console me!
This universalist debate is unfortunate. I especially hated the remark that one reviewer of your book made that if you were to take hell out of the equation, Christianity wouldn't have any attraction. That's not good news at all.
On debts: I wanted to say also I appreciated what you had to say about the Lord's Prayer some time ago and the idea (if I am not misconstruing your argument) that part of the prayer is about debtor's court and the predatory lending practices in the ancient world that kept people in poverty and worse. I now never say the Lord's Prayer anymore without that in mind.
To my mind, taking hell (or hell as commonly presented/understood) out of the equation is the only way that Christianity has any possible attraction at all.
In the parking lot of my Catholic boys high school, I was talking with one of the brothers who the school brought in to teach from another order (the school was run by the Xavierian Brothers). He drove a VW Beetle, and I remember the afternoon as quite sunny. I do not remember what we were discussing, but I vividly remember he saying to me: "My god would not create a hell." The comment has stayed with me all of these years (nearing five decades)--one of those moments when truth was simply and clearly stated, though at the time I did not completely grasp the profundity of what he had said. I know if I were ever to return to some form of Christianity, it would be as a universalist.
I shouldn’t have laughed at “tiddlywinks championship” but alas.
The article is called "A Prayer for the Poor" and was published in Notre Dame's Church Life Journal, for anyone interested in reading it for themselves (which you should). I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks of it every time I recite the Lord's Prayer.
In fact, & I made this point in Bookforum (I had thought I made it in my review of David's book, but I see now it was of Elaine Pagels), "Surely the concept of hell has produced more atheists than Feuerbach and Nietzsche combined."
Yes.
A very long time ago, a wise man from a pulpit told the story of his conversation with a person who insisted on the fact of eternal damnation. "How many people have to go to Hell before you feel safe?" the preacher asked him. That has stuck with me.
On the subject of hell, I've always favoured Marlowe's Mephistophilis's "Why this is hell, nor am I out of it. Think'st thou that I who saw the face of God And tasted the eternal joys of heaven Am not tormented with ten thousand hells In being deprived of everlasting bliss?" as the only credible version of it
You know, sometimes I just stop and try to imagine how Christian-identified folks would behave if they truly understood the unconditional love of Abba God. It's stunning to consider.
It seems nowadays with the identification of Christianity with Empire, most folks have a kind of "deficit" model of theology. This keeps them always unsettled, needing an authority to tell them they are okay. Thus the hierarchy retains power.
Isn’t the “all” vs “any” distinction exactly what the infernalist would invoke on each of the universalist “all” texts.
It only works if the particular syntax of the sentence warrants it. That’s not the case in the relevant passages in the New Testament.
Thank you , David , for your "Addendum to my Addenda" which continues classical wit from both Al Kimel and D. W. Frauenfelder. We English-speaking and former Protestants and Roman Catholics were attracted to Eastern Orthodoxy like you were by the just deceased Met. Kallistos Ware. But yr.
essays and books have kept many of us from leaving because of the ignorant betrayers of Orthodoxy
and its best theologians from "St." Origen, St. Irenaeus, and St. Gregory of Nyssa to Sergius Bulgakov, John Behr, Aidan (or "Al"?) Kimel of "Eclectic Orthodoxy," and the always courageous and witty David Bentley Hart. Truly yours, Dr. David C. McAlpin
Not sure that "courageous" is all that accurate. But thanks.
Thank you for calling our attention to the Kimel book; I've just ordered a copy and very much look forward to engaging it. Warm regards....
Many thanks, David, for your kind words for my good friend. And for us in the pastoral trenches, universalem is embraced at the worst of times as our greatest hope.