Having read On the soul and the resurrection, I'm now immersed in The life of Moses and On the making of man. Having grown up in first a Baptist context and Episcopalian, I haven't realized until now how much Augustinian/ Calvinistic angst I've been carrying around.
Your writing, talks, lectures and the Cappadocians are breathing new life and freedom into my faith. Thank you.
On another note other than Gregory, I wrote a column based on your God: Being, Consciousness, Bliss. Your influence is all the way through there besides my quoting you. I’ve attached it, whatever it’s worth. https://www.adventistreview.org/logic-of-existence
I was struck again by the contrast you made between Gregory/Origen and Augustin, for the former (Gregory), for example, theologians are required to gather pieces from his treatises to see his coherency, regarding the unity between the Creation (the beginning to be the end) and the Salvation (the end to be the beginning), while Augustin compiled more systematically his theology.
A thought occurred to me was such that Gregory might have lived with his corporeality indistinguishable from his theological vision, which penetrated into his thoughts, that consisted of all moments of his own time of life to be integrated into the eternity which must have been mirroring every moment, through which he produced his treatises in clarity, therefore he did not premeditate the wholeness of the treatises as a logical completion.
Also it is striking to know, again, that Gregory stood against the institutional slavery in the 4th century. Even in the 19th century in America, the advocacy was for the existing legality and economical benefits of the national institution, already structured as slavery dependent. You also said of Gregory's tender heartedness on the other occasion.
His saying of the last judgement as not punitive, thus there is no eternal damnation, must have been quite a blow to the traditional teaching of the eschatology, I can imagine. The thought must have been taken as revolutionary or too radical, although its timeless beauty comes straight down into our heart.
PS: Among the prominent abolitionists, Frederick Douglass denounced slavery (for many reasons, but mostly) because slaves are human beings and each slave has the image of God, as Gregory of Nyssa said the same many centuries before.
(9 hours later): The above mentioned was not the exact words of Douglass, but my memory served to accord with Gregory's. Below is the excerpt from Douglass' lecture on slavery at Rochester, December 1, 1850.
" The slave is a man, "the image of God," but "a little lower than angels;" possessing a soul, eternal and indestructible; capable of endless happiness, or immesurable woe ; a creature of hopes and fears, of affections and passions, of joys and sorrows, and he is endowed with those mysterious powers by which man soars above things of time and sense, and grasps, with undying tenacity, the elevating and sublimely glorious ideas of God. " Fredrick Douglass
1. Would you personally have any insights into how epektasis might be reconciled with one or another doctrine of samsara (loosely defined for this purpose as "cyclical existence" or "ebbing and flowing")? In your reading and research have you found any points of possible connection between Gregory and India here?
2. You became quite passionate towards the end about how thoroughly universalist Gregory is and how this is ironic for various reasons. I was wondering if Gregory (or any other father that you are aware of) ever constructed an "apology" for universalism (as opposed to "simply assuming" it as being obvious), along the lines of your own TASBS? I ask because I would assume that there would have been some communciation or debate between east and west even at such an early stage, and the western fathers tended strongly towards infernalism; so did Gregory or anyone else ever produce a straight up "contra infernalism" as a response to the likes of Augustine and Tertullian? Perhaps your TASBS will (after some centuries) turn out to have beeen the first patristic criticism of western eschatology!
Having read On the soul and the resurrection, I'm now immersed in The life of Moses and On the making of man. Having grown up in first a Baptist context and Episcopalian, I haven't realized until now how much Augustinian/ Calvinistic angst I've been carrying around.
Your writing, talks, lectures and the Cappadocians are breathing new life and freedom into my faith. Thank you.
On another note other than Gregory, I wrote a column based on your God: Being, Consciousness, Bliss. Your influence is all the way through there besides my quoting you. I’ve attached it, whatever it’s worth. https://www.adventistreview.org/logic-of-existence
Thanks
Sure.
...and then Episcopalian...
I was struck again by the contrast you made between Gregory/Origen and Augustin, for the former (Gregory), for example, theologians are required to gather pieces from his treatises to see his coherency, regarding the unity between the Creation (the beginning to be the end) and the Salvation (the end to be the beginning), while Augustin compiled more systematically his theology.
A thought occurred to me was such that Gregory might have lived with his corporeality indistinguishable from his theological vision, which penetrated into his thoughts, that consisted of all moments of his own time of life to be integrated into the eternity which must have been mirroring every moment, through which he produced his treatises in clarity, therefore he did not premeditate the wholeness of the treatises as a logical completion.
Also it is striking to know, again, that Gregory stood against the institutional slavery in the 4th century. Even in the 19th century in America, the advocacy was for the existing legality and economical benefits of the national institution, already structured as slavery dependent. You also said of Gregory's tender heartedness on the other occasion.
His saying of the last judgement as not punitive, thus there is no eternal damnation, must have been quite a blow to the traditional teaching of the eschatology, I can imagine. The thought must have been taken as revolutionary or too radical, although its timeless beauty comes straight down into our heart.
Yes.
PS: Among the prominent abolitionists, Frederick Douglass denounced slavery (for many reasons, but mostly) because slaves are human beings and each slave has the image of God, as Gregory of Nyssa said the same many centuries before.
(9 hours later): The above mentioned was not the exact words of Douglass, but my memory served to accord with Gregory's. Below is the excerpt from Douglass' lecture on slavery at Rochester, December 1, 1850.
" The slave is a man, "the image of God," but "a little lower than angels;" possessing a soul, eternal and indestructible; capable of endless happiness, or immesurable woe ; a creature of hopes and fears, of affections and passions, of joys and sorrows, and he is endowed with those mysterious powers by which man soars above things of time and sense, and grasps, with undying tenacity, the elevating and sublimely glorious ideas of God. " Fredrick Douglass
Another great youtube DBH session!
Two questions:
1. Would you personally have any insights into how epektasis might be reconciled with one or another doctrine of samsara (loosely defined for this purpose as "cyclical existence" or "ebbing and flowing")? In your reading and research have you found any points of possible connection between Gregory and India here?
2. You became quite passionate towards the end about how thoroughly universalist Gregory is and how this is ironic for various reasons. I was wondering if Gregory (or any other father that you are aware of) ever constructed an "apology" for universalism (as opposed to "simply assuming" it as being obvious), along the lines of your own TASBS? I ask because I would assume that there would have been some communciation or debate between east and west even at such an early stage, and the western fathers tended strongly towards infernalism; so did Gregory or anyone else ever produce a straight up "contra infernalism" as a response to the likes of Augustine and Tertullian? Perhaps your TASBS will (after some centuries) turn out to have beeen the first patristic criticism of western eschatology!
A fantastic dialogue.
And of course, as I hope I've proven, any time you agree to come on Perennial Digression, I will NEVER force you to stay on topic.
I’m sorry, I lost track of that remark. What were we talking about? And wouldn’t you agree that caramel is rather nasty?
I do, in fact, find caramel rather nasty. I’m much more partial to graham crackers, I’ve found recently, as desserts go.